Comments on: Nobody Owns Linux, But You Can Pay For It – Or Not https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/ In-depth coverage of high-end computing at large enterprises, supercomputing centers, hyperscale data centers, and public clouds. Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:27:01 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.5.5 By: JohnIL https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-160474 Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:27:01 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-160474 The fragmentation of Linux desktop has killed off the very advantage it has which is the open source. It has allowed far too many separate projects to exist and be created in order to offer way to many choices. Its not even productive choices, many are just rehash of other projects with slightly skewed differences. Its not even changes worthy of a separate distro in my opinion. Sometimes being to open and not being realistic that a more defined ecosystem would benefit in the end. So you have a bunch of different distro’s with a small group of users?? Can you imagine if this happened with Windows or MacOS?? Too confusing and not helpful when developing and in fact makes it much harder which is why Linux has fallen so far behind in many areas over Windows and MacOS.

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By: Eric Olson https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158244 Thu, 17 Dec 2020 06:01:03 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158244 While RedHat has contributed quite a bit of money to make RHEL, the amount of money they did not have to spend because GNU, Linux and so many other open source projects share code is even more significant.

That’s the point. By sharing development efforts everyone wins. Seen another way, RedHat would be very different or not exist if they had to start from scratch by bootstrapping their own compiler as the first step.

Writing your own compiler is what Mark Williams did when they made the Unix clone called Coherrent. The comparison of that to current Linux distributions shows how much more is possible with the cooperative sharing of software investments between companies and interested parties.

It doesn’t take an MBA to realize how this works. If fact, it’s possible having an MBA makes the financial advantages of sharing source code more difficult to understand.

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By: Glen Turner https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158190 Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:12:31 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158190 (Resubmitting, hopefully it won’t trash the paragraph breaks this time)

The “free to pay” issue is more nuanced than the article suggests, since Red Hat itself free-rides on the developers of much of the software it offers.

You’ll recall the issues with OpenSSL, which were basically because not a dollar of the millions being made by Red Hat flowed through to the people who wrote that fundamental software.

The Linux kernel is vital to Linux: Red Hat is a dominant and important contributor. But even so Red Hat’s contributions are about 5% (by changesets or LOC). The hyperscalers are more than that, as are the CPU vendors.

Self-support for the hyperscalers is essental. When Facebook is down it is not going to log into the Red Hat website and log a P1 case. The opportunity cost of lost advertising impressions pay for Facebook self-supporting the Linux it uses. Red Hat reducing its support rates to even 1% of its existing charge would not change that decision.

Legally, the Linux experience is dominated by the harrowing experience with SCO. If Google were to pay Canonical, then that contract opens Google to litigation from Canonical. Google makes so much money it could be worth a venture fund buying Canonical just to access that possibility of litigation with Google. Better for Google to take a free license with no support, but no contract. Far better again for Google to require its staff to use Debian, which can’t be purchased and used as a litigation vehicle.

The basic complaint of your article is that it’s unfair that Rocky Linux free-rides on Red Hat and other developer’s work. But it is somehow simultaneously fair that Red Hat free-ride on the work of other developers (who in turn free-ride on the work of other developers — as an author of networking software I am free-riding on the work of the GUI developers). The point of free software is that everyone free-rides. That’s the essential feature, not a bug.

Red Hat also free-rides on CentOS, especially in documentation. Search for an activity you might do on RHEL. Append that search with “RHEL”, compare with the results for “CentOS” or “Fedora”. Now maybe Red Hat will get around to writing the massive manuals which used to accompany Unixes from Sun or DEC, but in the meantime they are free-riding off CentOS users.

As for *everyone* paying a little for Linux — economically we call that “taxation”. Let’s take the Linux kernel: at best 15% of contributors are individuals. So you’re going to tax every Linux user (literally billions of people) and give the money to (in order by changed LOC): Intel, Huawei, Google, NXP, Red Hat, Code Aurora, Linaro, Facebook, BayLibre, AMD, IBM, MediaTek, Arm, TI, SuSE, Oracle, Nvidia. What strikes me about that list of recent major Linux contributors is that they are some of the wealthiest corporations on the planet. The very corporations we should be receiving more taxation revenue *from*.

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By: Glen Turner https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158189 Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:11:09 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158189 The “free to pay” issue is more nuanced than the article suggests, since Red Hat itself free-rides on the developers of much of the software it offers.

You’ll recall the issues with OpenSSL, which were basically because not a dollar of the millions being made by Red Hat flowed through to the people who wrote that fundamental software.

The Linux kernel is vital to Linux: Red Hat is a dominant and important contributor. But even so Red Hat’s contributions are about 5% (by changesets or LOC). The hyperscalers are more than that, as are the CPU vendors.

Self-support for the hyperscalers is essential. When Facebook is down it is not going to log into the Red Hat website and log a P1 case. The opportunity cost of lost advertising impressions pay for Facebook self-supporting the Linux it uses. Red Hat reducing its support rates to even 1% of its existing charge would not change that decision.

Legally, the Linux experience is dominated by the harrowing experience with SCO. If Google were to pay Canonical, then that contract opens Google to litigation from Canonical. Google makes so much money it could be worth a venture fund buying Canonical just to access that possibility of litigation with Google. Better for Google to take a free license with no support, but no contract. Far better again for Google to require its staff to use Debian, which can’t be purchased and used as a litigation vehicle.

The basic complaint of your article is that it’s unfair that Rocky Linux free-rides on Red Hat and other developer’s work. But it is somehow simultaneously fair that Red Hat free-ride on the work of other developers (who in turn free-ride on the work of other developers — as an author of networking software I am free-riding on the work of the GUI developers). The point of free software is that everyone free-rides. That’s the essential feature, not a bug.

Red Hat also free-rides on CentOS, especially in documentation. Search for an activity you might do on RHEL. Append that search with “RHEL”, compare with the results for “CentOS” or “Fedora”. Now maybe Red Hat will get around to writing the massive manuals which used to accompany Unixes from Sun or DEC, but in the meantime they are free-riding off CentOS users.

As for *everyone* paying a little for Linux — economically we call that “taxation”. Let’s take the Linux kernel: at best 15% of contributors are individuals. So you’re going to tax every Linux user (billions of people who already paid for phones and modems) and give the money to (in order by changed LOC): Intel, Huawei, Google, NXP, Red Hat, Code Aurora, Linaro, Facebook, BayLibre, AMD, IBM, MediaTek, Arm, TI, SuSE, Oracle, Nvidia. What strikes me about that list of recent major Linux contributors is that they are some of the wealthiest corporations on the planet. The very corporations we should be receiving more taxation revenue *from*.

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By: Timothy Prickett Morgan https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158188 Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:01:39 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158188 In reply to George N White III.

Now you are talking. I like the Green Bay Packers model myself–the town owns the team, the town pays, and the town benefits. I never thought of Linus Torvalds as Aaron Rogers before….now.

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By: Timothy Prickett Morgan https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158187 Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:00:04 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158187 In reply to Mary Biggs.

I understand. In the long run, Linux is what? 75 percent of the datacenter? More?

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By: Mary Biggs https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158177 Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:26:13 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158177 Great article. Thanks….but in the interest of “balance”, I’d like to point out that alternative “eco-systems” are seriously ugly. I’m thinking of the coercive models pushed by Apple, Microsoft and Oracle, which can be summarised as “Pay up…or else!” I know where my sympathies lie!!

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By: George N White III https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158132 Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:29:59 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158132 Long-term stable releases are costly to maintain and often limit users to older application versions. Not only Red Hat, but also many CentOS users will benefit from the new model. Linux is not the only open-source project suffering from what economists call the “free-rider” problem. https://xkcd.com/2347/'s “random person in Nebraska” is a real problem. An open peer-reviewed funding model with user-driven priorities and developer-generated proposals would go a long way towards ensuring that open source remains a viable base for operating systems and applications.

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By: U.K. https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158111 Sun, 13 Dec 2020 01:27:50 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158111 Perhaps Ballmer wasn’t that wrong.
Perhaps he now likes Linux because he got aware, that Open Source will eat itself, because you can only choose between two ways:
-non-profit, interest-based and idealistic, which will not pay your bills on the side of the developers, and which is not a reliable basis on the side of the users, as today this and tomorrow another project may be interesting for idealistic developers, and the project dies (btw. somebody HAS to pay the developers somehow, e.g. the company they are working for perhaps allows them to participate in the Linux development on purpose, so either the developer has less time for company projects, or he does it in his free-time and by this has less power and concentration on the company’s projects – one only has 24 hours a day to eat, sleep, …; same for students: someone pays if they stay longer at the university, and if it is a state university, people might pay with their taxes, also if they never use Linux)
-profit-based, which would work, but the licenses you have to accept will eat you, sooner or later, as the article somehow states, as you cannot keep your knowledge private

As a private user, paying for Linux in a general way, as the article proposes, is something I could not accept at the moment, as perhaps I pay something, and my favorite distro just disappears, as the developers found something else, which is more interesting, and create a new distro…
It is just too unreliable then to pay for “any” Linux or Linux in general.

Paying for RHEL? Well, if there could be any price model for private users, in a price region as in the past also Windows NT e.g. was (I was an owner right from the start with the 3.1 version; on 3.5” floppy disks), so ~350€ for 10 years support.
Problem is: Linux, the base of RHEL, isn’t owned by Red Hat, so they cannot guarantee such a timeframe, as perhaps Microsoft can with Windows, which code they own (where I would choose their LTSC (former LTSB) versions with 10 years support without feature-party; my still used Windows 8.1 internally shows as winblue.LTSB).

Linux was started as, and also stated as “free”. So, forgive me but, it is not right, if a company starts using a system as basis, which is free, will be free, and then at some point of time says “oh, we were wrong; you have to pay now in every case” (which they don’t say directly, I know). They knew what they did, when they started in the past (hopefully). They knew the licenses they have to accept.
It is correct: Every work should get a reward somehow, but in this case it is impossible to unite two sides which are that opposite: Commercial (we need to earn money) and non-Commercial (it will be and must be free).
Yes, in that way, Linux is somehow a cancer, as Ballmer stated, but a cancer that perhaps eats itself sooner or later.

(Microsoft does it very clever, from a commercial point of view: They keep their Windows, and add Linux, and now also Android, as somehow subsystems, which they adjust to their needs, with smaller effort than building both systems from scratch, as Microsoft mostly cares about “use our Azure – choose whatever system you want, but use Azure”.
Clever from a commercial point of view only, also if convenient for the users, as the problem is that they, on the Windows side, cumulate the vulnerabilities of the respective OSs by this integration.)

Perhaps their might be any other OS base in the future, which will be used under any other license, which allows to make improvements and further steps in closed-source, but then, we are again at the beginning.

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By: Andy Cater https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/12/10/nobody-owns-linux-but-you-can-pay-for-it-or-not/#comment-158094 Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:01:21 +0000 http://www.nextplatform.com/?p=137576#comment-158094 Thanks – those that actually help keep Linux distributions working for commercial entities to profit off might not actually want to pay the Linux Foundation, which is a purely commercial trade foundation these days.

Debian is altruistic, enlightened self interest, for example, that feeds Ubuntu and all derivatives – but is reliant on donors to help provide some hosting – and SPI has a non-profit stance.

Your point about the whole infrastructure being based on CentOS is an interesting one: If Facebook is using CentOS Streams, Amazon is using forked CentOS, Oracle is using forked RHEL in the same way as CentOS without paying RHEL – Red Hat have problems if they want to rejig Red Hat and rely on outside developer goodwill. This was, essentially, a huge misunderstanding on all sides but it has left a bad impression, deservedly or not.As you note, there is no such thing as a free lunch – but the people who don’t pay Red Hat provide their support in-house.

If Red Hat were to disappear tomorrow, it would leave a hole but that might be in commercial training courses, consultancy and event sponsorship as much as in the whole of the huge Linux infrastructure. The Fedora project might suffer short term but might pick up the slack or fade away: Red Hat-specific developers would find other useful work to do.As much of the valuation is goodwill as subscription, in some ways.

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