Comments on: Is This The End Of The Line For NEC Vector Supercomputers? https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/ In-depth coverage of high-end computing at large enterprises, supercomputing centers, hyperscale data centers, and public clouds. Fri, 07 Apr 2023 00:12:32 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.5.5 By: Hubert https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206899 Fri, 07 Apr 2023 00:12:32 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206899 In reply to Paul Berry.

Thanks … makes sense (unfortunately)!

]]> By: Paul Berry https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206524 Thu, 30 Mar 2023 15:03:24 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206524 In reply to Hubert.

Hubert
A vector processor that is perfectly engineered to extract every bit of performance possible from a process node and memory subsystem might perform better than a similar gpu-derived architecture. However, NEC probably has 1/1000th the budget of nvidia in terms of tuning the design to the available resources.

]]> By: Freddie https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206520 Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:13:31 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206520 In reply to AC.

> They don’t compete against GPUs: if it’s been successfully ported to CUDA, the game is over.

Historically that was very much the case, but recently NVIDIA’s pricing has been scaling in line with their ML performance rather than HPC. A decade ago a colleague of mine procured a cluster of 36 K20’s for ~£100k, five years ago he got 16 V100’s for ~£100k, and now he is looking at 4 H100’s for about the same money.

NEC VE’s do very well in this category. The main issue is the attitude of NEC. Case in point they still charge for and license the ‘ncc’ compiler. No one else, not even Intel (!), is in that game anymore. You pay several thousands of dollars for a VE and then if you actually want to use it, need to fork out even more for a compiler license. (There is LLVM support, but the performance is not there.)

]]> By: Timothy Prickett Morgan https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206334 Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:42:58 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206334 In reply to Hubert.

I wonder if somehow this is a bit of a trial balloon to see how much complaining there would be should such a thing come to pass. If people make enough of a fuss, then the funding will be found. I have seen this sort of thing before.

]]> By: Hubert https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206279 Sat, 25 Mar 2023 05:14:07 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206279 I’m surprised by this turn of events as I would have expected vector-motors to “always” be ahead of GPUs in terms of their performance and efficiency at processing data vectors (and matrices, and tensors). GPUs were initially designed to process projected triangles for display, including pixel coordinates, colors, shades and textures, and only later re-engineered for more generic vectors, matrices and tensors, while the V-engines were designed for those from the get-go (unencumbered by triangular legacy). Market forces may have fostered broader adoption of GPUs, thanks to gamers with wealthy parents, or their own disposable income, and economies of scale (plus CUDA) that led to viral GPU adoption in HPC (and AI/ML), and to the enhanced designs that we see today — but from a purely logical and technical perspective, V-machines should have won out, from the onset (outside of gaming, VR, and other such display-focused apps). The situation reminds me of electric cars, such as “la fusée”, which can be seen at the “musée national de la Voiture de Compiègne”, that hit 100km/h (60mph) way back in 1899, but was abandoned in favor of internal combustion engine tech, only to find again (nowadays) that electric motors may not be such a bad idea after all … logic and reason eventually winning out over short term capex.

]]> By: Timothy Prickett Morgan https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206249 Fri, 24 Mar 2023 14:32:39 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206249 In reply to AC.

They absolutely were when we wrote about the VE30 last year. Thanks for the link.

]]> By: Paul Berry https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206246 Fri, 24 Mar 2023 13:24:46 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206246 Irrespective of what improvements might have been planned, as far as I can tell they only managed to sell 5-10 thousand of these cards. No matter the architecture, designing a high performance chip for 3-5 nm process is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Divide that by the units shipped and you’ve got tens of thousands of dollars in r&d costs per unit, before you even start in on software. There are very likely areas of HPC where NEC’s vector units perform better than a GPU or a CPU with HBM, but not many, and probably not in AI or any other hpc adjacent markets. Interesting, but not exactly cost effective.

]]> By: AC https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/23/is-this-the-end-of-the-line-for-nec-vector-supercomputers/#comment-206237 Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:49:45 +0000 https://www.nextplatform.com/?p=142109#comment-206237 VE30 specs are not hidden: https://www.nec.com/en/global/solutions/hpc/sx/vector_engine.html
Clock is the same, the better than linear speedup might have come from bigger cache or architectural improvements.
They don’t compete against GPUs: if it’s been successfully ported to CUDA, the game is over. Memory bound hard-to-port-to-GPUs problems are their niche. Xeons with HBM may be their death knell.

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